I can't believe I missed this post. My partner has exactly the same thing! He grew up in Ayrshire and moved to the English Midlands in the early 90s. As soon as he did, he realised the English were struggling with his accent, so he adopted a sort-of English accent. It actually disappoints people when they meet him because he has such a Scottish name (not Hamish McTavish, but close!) and he doesn't sound "Scottish" to them.
And when people don't know where he's from, they think he's from the West Country as well! 🤣 I think it's mainly the rhoticism - he's Anglicised his accent a lot, but those rolling Scottish R's are there still there. But because he doesn't sound obviously Scottish but sort-of southern English, they hear West Country (because south-east English accents aren't rhotic - maybe Norfolk is a tiny bit.. the R is a bit more audible than it is in other south-east accents (is Norfolk truly south-east, though, seeing as Norwich is further north than Birmingham!).
I do wonder if his vowels sound a bit West Country as well, in that they're altered not to sound strongly Scottish, but they're not "Standard" or "BBC English". And combined with the rhoticism, people hear West Country.
"Ahhhvve gort a brrrand nooo combine bagpipe?"
(I've picked up Scottishisms from him... I rather like "shoogly", not sure how it's spelt, and "do you not"/"is there not"/"can you not" etc instead of the contracted versions, "just now" and "across the way". I'm sure there's others I don't know of. Although I've never used "dinnae" and I think I should!)
My dad has an accent which is specific to the village we're from in north Essex. He was working in Portsmouth and he'd only said a few words to a bloke there when he identified where my dad's from, based on his accent. The village used to have a shipyard and the bloke my dad encountered had worked there for a bit, hence how he recognised it. Then I realised that if you listen carefully, you can hear a slight difference between the accents along the river that the village is on. Isn't that weird! Especially when, historically, the shipyard attracted people from all over the place to work, so the population wasn't as static as it would be somewhere more remote!
I always thought I didn't really have the accent, until I was on a radio programme about a mystery in the village on the opposite side of the river from ours. You can hear interviews they did with locals in their 80s who I thought sounded like my grandma. Then I start talking and although I sound more Standard Southern English, you can definitely hear elements of that accent in my voice. A strong version of it can sound like New Zealand or South African if the listener doesn't realise you're English - the vowels all sound a bit "higher" than in Standard.
The accent is like a variation of Ralph Fiennes' pitch-perfect Suffolk accent in "The Dig".
Haha. How funny you missed this with all those connections. It’s interesting that your partner’s accent is confused like mine and I do agree the rhotic element is most likely the feature. I love this ability to recognise accents that specifically, too — what an ear.
I'm originally from Livingston. I was picked on in primary school as being posh because I didn't drop my Ts etc. I've always had a good ear and can mimic most accents so I learned to switch very quickly. Sounding native in French, Spanish and Turkish caused issues because people thought I could understand more than I actually did, because I always hated learning the grammar. When living in Turkey I often had to speak in an English (London) or vague American accent, because their teachers had either been English or American and they couldn't understand my flat vowel sounds. In Fethiye most Turks spoke English with a Turkish accent. There was this one girl though, who sounded like she came from the East End, because she'd picked up the accent from the English tourists that stayed at her family's hotel 🤣. It was remarkable!
I was continually corrected by my mother to speak "properly". " 'Mine' not 'moine' , 'yes' not 'yeah', " on landing into the real world as a teenager my accent was often mercilessly mocked as 'posh'. So I developed the ability to morph into a more generally acceptable version, "Yeah, seeya layda daan the taan" (cant easily spell this 🤔) So I am from the Home Counties but can do a decent imitation of Slough. Or should I say, "Slaah"
I have one of the most nondescript accents possible - east Midlands. Flat A, with dropped Hs and a glottal stop if I'm tired/excited/shouting. It's just...not much to listen to! Definitely not a strong 'Lestoh' or 'Inckleh' (where I grew up). Now I live in mid-Cornwall close to Falmouth and because there are tons of students around here, it's easy to blend in with an unclear accent.
An unclear accent is exactly it. And of course, blending in with a mix of different accents is much easier. I think living in London I have had that, and probably influenced how mine has transformed. I don’t speak like a Londoner at all, but people find it hard to place. Unclear accents for the win!
Same! I had a friend with a very strong Irish accent and I had to really stop myself from slipping into it while with her. After she’d gone I was Irish for days.
When I was at college, my conversation with another student was interrupted by a very posh German-born English public school educated student. "Where on *earth* are you from?" I replied, nonplussed, "about half way between here and Birmingham, why?"
"You sound like a total yokel"
I was too surprised by the rudeness to reply. Attitudes to accents are very coded and loaded
It can go the other way, class-wise. My mum and I went to a uni open day in York. She mentioned to a bloke who started chatting to us that she was from Yorkshire originally. He then started berating her for "obviously" having had elocution lessons to lose her accent! I waited for him to take a breath and informed him she'd moved to Essex with her parents at the age of 9. Then there's the syndrome, as a linguist, of gradually and unconsciously mimicking someone's accent as you talk. Which is fine, unless they notice
Oooooooh fellow linguist! And fellow accent switcher. I went through a phase (embarrassingly) of doing an Irish accent. All the time. I used to have holidays in Fife and go back home sounding like I was born and bred in some coastal town.
How have you listened into conversations hubby and I have?!
This is brilliant! We talk about it A LOT! I’m Australian, but part of Australia where we sound more “posh” (South Australia) and I speak Swedish with an Åland accent (it’s where I currently live and a population of 30k) and German. My husband speaks Åland Swedish and English like a Brummy because his football team is Aston Villa and he’s spent so much time in Birmingham. Although now we’re together he’s edging towards Aussie.
We love accents and how they’ve developed and why and have gone down rabbit holes of why accents have developed (Australians sound like they do because the main accents of the settlers who arrived had changed markedly from when they arrived in the USA we discovered)
Bring on more linguistics!! And swearing, because we need to educate the cunts 😜😂
Oh how fantastic! I love lovers of linguistics and swearing, obvs. So funny that your husband’s English accent is a Brummie one because of his football team, and now he’s turning Aussie. It is definitely the right fodder for rabbit holes.
Do you know I was born in Birmingham from Scottish parents ( Grandmother was a Bruce) with an Irish/ Celtic surname but used to play rugby for Birmingham Welsh ,( hopefully get a drink anywhere in Uk)
People struggle to know from my accent where I am from.
I think my parents nullified the brummie accent.
I remember taking my wife to be to meet my parents saying they were Scottish but no Scottish accent. She chided me later... how could I not hear their Scottish accents
I'm Welsh, and when I moved to England I changed my accent too - now I'm older and wiser I wish I hadn't! Now I only really sound Welsh if I'm in Wales, ranting about something or a bit tipsy. Never had anyone think I was anything other than Welsh though!
I regret it too, Helen! I still don’t hear any Scottish or anything really in my accent, and I don’t recognise when it changes. I can’t even do a ‘fake’ Scottish accent. It’s a damn shame!
I totally get the "Key" thing. I trained myself to pronounce my name in an Irish accent because so many people over here would start calling me "Mercy" after I introduced myself.
Sometimes! It depends on how tired and jumbled up my brain is whether it comes out as those or as "sidewalk" and "garbage." Like you, I probably end up saying both quite often. 😂
My Yorkshire accent has definitely faded, but I can still spot the distinct differences between Barnsley and Sheffield accents, even though they're only a few miles apart.
I think we might retain that ear for the differences, but so funny you’re considered “posh” — I’ve not been home in so long I’ve no idea what I’d be considered.
I think we might retain that ear for the differences, but so funny you’re considered “posh” — I’ve not been home in so long I’ve no idea what I’d be considered.
When I was a child (Suburban London) I spoke pure BBC (not Royal) RP but that has softened over the years.
I was once told by a friend who turned out to be horrible, who had studiously lost her Berwick on Tweed accent on moving to London, that people from Bromley don't speak how I do, and that my accent was fake. It took me decades to realise that her behaviour towards me was all about her, as it so often is with people.
I understand your reasons for doing it but it's a shame that had to. It's a bit sad that Londoners or our more Southern English pals aren't exposed enough to Scottish accents that they couldn't understand you( outwith Glasgow, always the go to) .
I share your interest in dialects, and reading about their peculiarities in other countries is fascinating! Here, dialects have had a small renaissance. While in my childhood they were considered rustic (those combine harvesters… 😂), people value their linguistic roots these days.
It’s interesting how the attitude towards dialects has changed over time. It’s not that long ago that most tv voice-overs and adverts were in Received Pronunciation (BBC English) and regional accents were really looked down upon. The way that the internet has opened people’s experiences of different accents, dialects, languages has shifted those perspectives and given us access to engaging with more of them.
The Wurzels were a chart-topping group back in the day! 🤣🤣🤣
You will never recover, Elina! That will haunt you til you die… 🤣 I think they’re still going too! Maybe we should go to a gig?! Get @Jayne Marshall involved.
What have you done to poor @Elina Haverinen?! That must have been extremely bewildering! You know I’m half West Country? I lived in Bristol from age 18 to 34. Bristol 100% is more my UK home than Coventry. So, for me, it was lovely to see The Wurtzels, but just not so sure they “translate” 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I think some do, but not in the same frequency and way we do. I don’t say it anymore, but back then people acted like it wasn’t something they could decipher from context!
i’ve (deliberately) used it in every formal piece of writing i’ve produced since I found out lol, I genuinely can’t understand how they cope without it 😅
I can't believe I missed this post. My partner has exactly the same thing! He grew up in Ayrshire and moved to the English Midlands in the early 90s. As soon as he did, he realised the English were struggling with his accent, so he adopted a sort-of English accent. It actually disappoints people when they meet him because he has such a Scottish name (not Hamish McTavish, but close!) and he doesn't sound "Scottish" to them.
And when people don't know where he's from, they think he's from the West Country as well! 🤣 I think it's mainly the rhoticism - he's Anglicised his accent a lot, but those rolling Scottish R's are there still there. But because he doesn't sound obviously Scottish but sort-of southern English, they hear West Country (because south-east English accents aren't rhotic - maybe Norfolk is a tiny bit.. the R is a bit more audible than it is in other south-east accents (is Norfolk truly south-east, though, seeing as Norwich is further north than Birmingham!).
I do wonder if his vowels sound a bit West Country as well, in that they're altered not to sound strongly Scottish, but they're not "Standard" or "BBC English". And combined with the rhoticism, people hear West Country.
"Ahhhvve gort a brrrand nooo combine bagpipe?"
(I've picked up Scottishisms from him... I rather like "shoogly", not sure how it's spelt, and "do you not"/"is there not"/"can you not" etc instead of the contracted versions, "just now" and "across the way". I'm sure there's others I don't know of. Although I've never used "dinnae" and I think I should!)
My dad has an accent which is specific to the village we're from in north Essex. He was working in Portsmouth and he'd only said a few words to a bloke there when he identified where my dad's from, based on his accent. The village used to have a shipyard and the bloke my dad encountered had worked there for a bit, hence how he recognised it. Then I realised that if you listen carefully, you can hear a slight difference between the accents along the river that the village is on. Isn't that weird! Especially when, historically, the shipyard attracted people from all over the place to work, so the population wasn't as static as it would be somewhere more remote!
I always thought I didn't really have the accent, until I was on a radio programme about a mystery in the village on the opposite side of the river from ours. You can hear interviews they did with locals in their 80s who I thought sounded like my grandma. Then I start talking and although I sound more Standard Southern English, you can definitely hear elements of that accent in my voice. A strong version of it can sound like New Zealand or South African if the listener doesn't realise you're English - the vowels all sound a bit "higher" than in Standard.
The accent is like a variation of Ralph Fiennes' pitch-perfect Suffolk accent in "The Dig".
I'll shut up now! ;)
Haha. How funny you missed this with all those connections. It’s interesting that your partner’s accent is confused like mine and I do agree the rhotic element is most likely the feature. I love this ability to recognise accents that specifically, too — what an ear.
I'm originally from Livingston. I was picked on in primary school as being posh because I didn't drop my Ts etc. I've always had a good ear and can mimic most accents so I learned to switch very quickly. Sounding native in French, Spanish and Turkish caused issues because people thought I could understand more than I actually did, because I always hated learning the grammar. When living in Turkey I often had to speak in an English (London) or vague American accent, because their teachers had either been English or American and they couldn't understand my flat vowel sounds. In Fethiye most Turks spoke English with a Turkish accent. There was this one girl though, who sounded like she came from the East End, because she'd picked up the accent from the English tourists that stayed at her family's hotel 🤣. It was remarkable!
I was continually corrected by my mother to speak "properly". " 'Mine' not 'moine' , 'yes' not 'yeah', " on landing into the real world as a teenager my accent was often mercilessly mocked as 'posh'. So I developed the ability to morph into a more generally acceptable version, "Yeah, seeya layda daan the taan" (cant easily spell this 🤔) So I am from the Home Counties but can do a decent imitation of Slough. Or should I say, "Slaah"
Haha. It’s incredible how we morph into these different voices to fit something or someone.
I have one of the most nondescript accents possible - east Midlands. Flat A, with dropped Hs and a glottal stop if I'm tired/excited/shouting. It's just...not much to listen to! Definitely not a strong 'Lestoh' or 'Inckleh' (where I grew up). Now I live in mid-Cornwall close to Falmouth and because there are tons of students around here, it's easy to blend in with an unclear accent.
An unclear accent is exactly it. And of course, blending in with a mix of different accents is much easier. I think living in London I have had that, and probably influenced how mine has transformed. I don’t speak like a Londoner at all, but people find it hard to place. Unclear accents for the win!
I find I'm really easily influenced by anyone with a stronger accent too, and I pick up their inflection and pronunciation like a weird magpie mimic.
Same! I had a friend with a very strong Irish accent and I had to really stop myself from slipping into it while with her. After she’d gone I was Irish for days.
When I was at college, my conversation with another student was interrupted by a very posh German-born English public school educated student. "Where on *earth* are you from?" I replied, nonplussed, "about half way between here and Birmingham, why?"
"You sound like a total yokel"
I was too surprised by the rudeness to reply. Attitudes to accents are very coded and loaded
Why is it always the poshos with some shit to say about accents and "class" or status? So fucking rude.
It can go the other way, class-wise. My mum and I went to a uni open day in York. She mentioned to a bloke who started chatting to us that she was from Yorkshire originally. He then started berating her for "obviously" having had elocution lessons to lose her accent! I waited for him to take a breath and informed him she'd moved to Essex with her parents at the age of 9. Then there's the syndrome, as a linguist, of gradually and unconsciously mimicking someone's accent as you talk. Which is fine, unless they notice
Oooooooh fellow linguist! And fellow accent switcher. I went through a phase (embarrassingly) of doing an Irish accent. All the time. I used to have holidays in Fife and go back home sounding like I was born and bred in some coastal town.
How have you listened into conversations hubby and I have?!
This is brilliant! We talk about it A LOT! I’m Australian, but part of Australia where we sound more “posh” (South Australia) and I speak Swedish with an Åland accent (it’s where I currently live and a population of 30k) and German. My husband speaks Åland Swedish and English like a Brummy because his football team is Aston Villa and he’s spent so much time in Birmingham. Although now we’re together he’s edging towards Aussie.
We love accents and how they’ve developed and why and have gone down rabbit holes of why accents have developed (Australians sound like they do because the main accents of the settlers who arrived had changed markedly from when they arrived in the USA we discovered)
Bring on more linguistics!! And swearing, because we need to educate the cunts 😜😂
Oh how fantastic! I love lovers of linguistics and swearing, obvs. So funny that your husband’s English accent is a Brummie one because of his football team, and now he’s turning Aussie. It is definitely the right fodder for rabbit holes.
Exactly!! And we love language so we never run dry if conversation 😜
Do you know I was born in Birmingham from Scottish parents ( Grandmother was a Bruce) with an Irish/ Celtic surname but used to play rugby for Birmingham Welsh ,( hopefully get a drink anywhere in Uk)
People struggle to know from my accent where I am from.
I think my parents nullified the brummie accent.
I remember taking my wife to be to meet my parents saying they were Scottish but no Scottish accent. She chided me later... how could I not hear their Scottish accents
There you go
Wish you well
Haha. I love that you didn’t hear their accents but your wife did. Our ears adapt in weird ways.
I'm Welsh, and when I moved to England I changed my accent too - now I'm older and wiser I wish I hadn't! Now I only really sound Welsh if I'm in Wales, ranting about something or a bit tipsy. Never had anyone think I was anything other than Welsh though!
I regret it too, Helen! I still don’t hear any Scottish or anything really in my accent, and I don’t recognise when it changes. I can’t even do a ‘fake’ Scottish accent. It’s a damn shame!
Kanye would be the sort of person to call his kid Key. Surprised he didn’t, actually.
Oh shit.. you’re absolutely right! There is still time if any walking womb would accommodate…
I totally get the "Key" thing. I trained myself to pronounce my name in an Irish accent because so many people over here would start calling me "Mercy" after I introduced myself.
Oh of course. When I spent a summer in California, I remember forcing myself to say “ga-RAH-ge” and it felt so wrong 😂
Oh yeah - that's a funny one (like schedule) that my husband and I pronounce completely differently in our Irish and American accents! 😂
Do you say “pavement” now and “rubbish”? I couldn’t switch, so I’d often end up saying both 😂
Sometimes! It depends on how tired and jumbled up my brain is whether it comes out as those or as "sidewalk" and "garbage." Like you, I probably end up saying both quite often. 😂
Haha! It’s a minefield
My Yorkshire accent has definitely faded, but I can still spot the distinct differences between Barnsley and Sheffield accents, even though they're only a few miles apart.
I'm considered "posh" if I'm back up north!
I think we might retain that ear for the differences, but so funny you’re considered “posh” — I’ve not been home in so long I’ve no idea what I’d be considered.
I think we might retain that ear for the differences, but so funny you’re considered “posh” — I’ve not been home in so long I’ve no idea what I’d be considered.
When I was a child (Suburban London) I spoke pure BBC (not Royal) RP but that has softened over the years.
I was once told by a friend who turned out to be horrible, who had studiously lost her Berwick on Tweed accent on moving to London, that people from Bromley don't speak how I do, and that my accent was fake. It took me decades to realise that her behaviour towards me was all about her, as it so often is with people.
Ughhhh. And from someone who had worked on changing her own accent!
Good one! (Although, I am now seriously considering calling something Key. Maybe a dog.)
Did you see mine on a similar topic?
https://open.substack.com/pub/dudleyboy/p/giving-the-wrong-impression?r=2bevs1&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
I have now! Brilliant!
I understand your reasons for doing it but it's a shame that had to. It's a bit sad that Londoners or our more Southern English pals aren't exposed enough to Scottish accents that they couldn't understand you( outwith Glasgow, always the go to) .
I do regret it now. At the time, I don’t think I thought it would be a permanent change. It’s weird to think back to me actually consciously doing it.
My daughter, who also studied in Edinburgh, has several Scottish vowels and words creeping into her speech. But then she can do a lot of accents.
Those Scottish vowels can prove tricky to get rid of and particularly annoying when learning French.
I share your interest in dialects, and reading about their peculiarities in other countries is fascinating! Here, dialects have had a small renaissance. While in my childhood they were considered rustic (those combine harvesters… 😂), people value their linguistic roots these days.
...The Wurzels 🤣🤣🤣🤣
It’s interesting how the attitude towards dialects has changed over time. It’s not that long ago that most tv voice-overs and adverts were in Received Pronunciation (BBC English) and regional accents were really looked down upon. The way that the internet has opened people’s experiences of different accents, dialects, languages has shifted those perspectives and given us access to engaging with more of them.
The Wurzels were a chart-topping group back in the day! 🤣🤣🤣
Yes, and that's fantastic! Dialects have too many delicious words and ways of speaking to be wasted on fancy arrogance.
I still can't get over The Wurzels...
Have you had a listen to the Wurzels yet?? 🫣
Of course I had to! "I've got a brand new combine harvester..." 😂😂 I won't recover for a while - I'm a farm girl, after all 😅
You will never recover, Elina! That will haunt you til you die… 🤣 I think they’re still going too! Maybe we should go to a gig?! Get @Jayne Marshall involved.
What have you done to poor @Elina Haverinen?! That must have been extremely bewildering! You know I’m half West Country? I lived in Bristol from age 18 to 34. Bristol 100% is more my UK home than Coventry. So, for me, it was lovely to see The Wurtzels, but just not so sure they “translate” 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Deal!! 🤣
do English people not say "just now"???
I think some do, but not in the same frequency and way we do. I don’t say it anymore, but back then people acted like it wasn’t something they could decipher from context!
🤯 this is almost as shocking as the fact they don't know 'outwith'
I don’t know how the English manage without using ‘outwith’!
Literally! Like, sometimes ‘outside’ just doesn’t cut it
Exactly!!!
I use it. They have to come round one day!!!
That one bothers me so much as I use it (written) in spite of it.
i’ve (deliberately) used it in every formal piece of writing i’ve produced since I found out lol, I genuinely can’t understand how they cope without it 😅
It’s almost as bad as when I learned Americans don’t use A4 / A3 etc for paper sizes!
this is entirely new info for me… what do they use ?